Home » Religion and Ministry Discussions » Pre-Vatican II Liturgy » Offertory Prayers New and Old
| Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Wed, 03 June 2009 14:10  |
 M Anon
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I mentioned the discussion below and an older friend who in no wise longs for the EF immediately and categorically declared that of paramount importance was restoring the offertory prayers in some way.
I didn't want to go into it, because the look in his eye gave me to understand he might be a little too zealous to be concise, but I have heard something similar before, but not usually from Spirit of Vatican Two types, which he mostly is, I thought.
What was the deal with the offertory prayers in the old Mass?
Did the servers (or lay people, in the "dialogue" Mass,) even have any responses?
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Wed, 03 June 2009 15:24  |
japhy
Messages: 480
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Location: Princeton, NJ |
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| M Anon wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 17:10 |
... restoring the offertory prayers in some way.
What was the deal with the offertory prayers in the old Mass?
Did the servers ... even have any responses?
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The Offertory prayers of the Extraordinary Form (found here) were said in a low voice by the priest, and there were no responses given.
Over the Bread
Súscipe, sancte Pater, omnípotens ætérne Deus, hanc immaculátam hóstiam, quam ego indígnus fámulus tuus óffero tibi Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabílibus peccátis, et offensiónibus, et negligéntiis meis, et pro ómnibus circumstántibus, sed et pro ómnibus fidélibus christiánis vivis atque defúunctis: ut mihi et illis profíciat ad salútem in vitam ætérnam. Amen.
Accept, O Holy father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.
At the mingling of the Water and Wine
Deus, + qui humánæ substántiæ dignitátem mirabíliter condidísti et mirabílius reformásti: da nobis, per hujus aquæ et vini mystérium, ejus divinitátis esse consórtes, qui humanitátis nostræ fíeri dignátus est párticeps, Jesus Christus, Fílius tuus, Dóminus noster: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti Deus: per ómnia sæcula sæculórum. Amen.
O God, + Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew; by the Mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath deigned to become a partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son our Lord; Who liveth and reigneth with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God. World without end. Amen.
Over the Water and Wine
Offérimus tibí, Dómine, cálicem salutáris, tuam deprecántes cleméntiam: ut in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ, pro nostra et totíus mundi salúte, cum odóre suavitátis ascéndat. Amen.
We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, entreating Thy mercy that our offering may ascend with a sweet fragrance in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.
Prayer of Humility
In spíritu humilitátis, et in ánimo contríto suscipiámur a te, Dómine: et sic fiat sacrifícium nostrum in conspéctu tuo hódie, ut pláceat tibi, Dómine Deus.
Humbled in spirit and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord: and may our sacrifice be so offered this day in Thy sight as to be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.
Prayer to the Holy Spirit (Epiclesis?)
Veni, Sanctificátor omnípotens ætérne Deus: et bénedic + hoc sacrifícium, tuo sancto nómini præparátum.
Come Thou, the Sanctifier, Almighty and Everlasting God, and bless + this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy Name.
(There are also prayers for incensing the offerings.)
The Lavabo
Lavábo inter innocéntes manus meas: et circúmdabo altáre tuum, Dómine. Ut áudiam vocem laudis: et enárrem univérsa mirabília tua. Dómine, diléxi decórem domus tuæ: et locum habitatiónis glóriæ tuæ. Ne perdas cum ímpiis, Deus: ánimam meam, et cum viris sánguinum vitam meam. In quorum mánibus iniquitátes sunt: déxtera eórum repléta est munéribus. Ego autem in innocéntia mea ingréssus sum: rédime me, et miserére mei. Pes meus stetit in dirécto: in ecclésiis benedícam te, Dómine.
I will wash my hands among the innocent, and I will encompass Thine Altar, O Lord. That I may hear the voice of praise, and tell of all Thy wondrous works. I have loved, O Lord, the beauty of Thy house, and the place where Thy glory dwelleth. Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked, nor my life with men of blood. In whose hands are iniquities, their right hand is filled with gifts. But as for me, I have walked in my innocence; redeem me, and have mercy on me. My foot hath stood in the right way; in the churches I will bless Thee, O Lord.
Prayer to the Trinity
Súscipe, Sancta Trínitas, hanc oblatiónem, quam tibi offérimus ob memóriam passiónis, resurrectiónis, et ascensiónis Jesu Christi Dómini nostri, et in honórem beátæ Maríæ semper Vírginis, et beáti Joánnis Baptístæ, et sanctórum Apostolórum Petri et Pauli, et istórum, et ómnium Sanctórum: ut illis profíciat ad honórem, nobis autem ad salútem: et illi pro nobis intercédere dignéntur in cælis, quorum memóriam ágimus in terris. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
Receive, O Holy Trinity, this oblation which we make to Thee in memory of the Passion, Resurrection and Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ; and in honor of Blessed Mary ever Virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, of these and of all the Saints. To them let it bring honor, and to us salvation, and may they whom we are commemorating here on earth deign to plead for us in heaven. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Wed, 03 June 2009 18:13 |
japhy
Messages: 480
Registered: October 2008
Location: Princeton, NJ |
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| M Anon wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 18:59 |
I had read them, I'm just wondering what people who feel their loss think is missing now. The self-abnegation by the priest? the contrition?
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(LONG POST!)
The language of the prayers over the bread and wine are seen by some as overly Eucharistic; that is, they speak of the bread and wine before the consecration in ways you might expect to hear AFTER the consecration.
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The prayer at the mixing of the wine with water was abbreviated; the bold portion is the retained part:
EF: O God, + Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew; by the Mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath deigned to become a partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son our Lord; Who liveth and reigneth with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God. World without end. Amen.
OF: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.
The prayer has had a theological preface removed from its beginning, but I do not know why. This prayer had what I would consider a rather Roman form to it: "O God, Who did X, grant Y, through Christ, etc.", where X and Y and thematically related. The OF form, if spoken aloud, could be misunderstood as a simply catechetical statement addressed to the congregation (as opposed to a prayer to God).
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The prayer of humility is identical in both forms:
EF: Humbled in spirit and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord: and may our sacrifice be so offered this day in Thy sight as to be pleasing to Thee, O Lord God.
(In spíritu humilitátis, et in ánimo contríto suscipiámur a te, Dómine: et sic fiat sacrifícium nostrum in conspéctu tuo hódie, ut pláceat tibi, Dómine Deus.)
OF: With humble spirit and contrite heart, may we be accepted by you, O Lord, and may our sacrifice in your sight this day be pleasing to you, Lord God.
(In spíritu humilitátis et in ánimo contríto suscipiámur a te, Dómine; et sic fiat sacrifícium nostrum in conspéctu tuo hódie, ut pláceat tibi, Dómine Deus.)
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The removal of the epiclesis-type prayer is rather significant, because the Roman Canon doesn't have an explicit epiclesis. The Quam oblationem in the Canon, during which the priest extends his hands over the offerings in the O.F., does not name the Holy Spirit, but it is analogous to the epiclesis, because it asks God to grant the offering to become the Eucharist:
EF: Humbly we pray Thee, O God, be pleased to make this same offering wholly blessed +, to consecrate + it and approve + it, making it reasonable and acceptable, so that it may become for us the Body + and Blood + of Thy dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
OF: Be pleased, O God, we pray, to bless, acknowledge, and approve this offering in every respect; make it spiritual and acceptable, so that it may become for us the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ.
The prayer to the Holy Spirit in the E.F., while it mentions the Holy Spirit, does not mention the desired consecration, simply a request for blessing.
For comparison, here's the epiclesis from Eucharistic Prayer II:
OF: Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. (E.P. II)
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The Lavabo (now the Lava me) has been abbreviated; rather, it has been changed entirely. The E.F. uses Psalm 26:6-12, while the O.F. uses Psalm 51:2. (According to the RSV.) An examination reveals a shift in piety (though not theology, I would argue):
Ps 26 (RSV)
[6] I wash my hands in innocence, and go about thy altar, O LORD, ...
[9] Sweep me not away with sinners, nor my life with bloodthirsty men, ...
[11] But as for me, I walk in my integrity; redeem me, and be gracious to me.
Ps 25 (Douay Rheims)
[6] I will wash my hands among the innocent; and will compass thy altar, O Lord: ...
[9] Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked: nor my life with bloody men: ...
[11] But as for me, I have walked in my innocence: redeem me, and have mercy on me.
Ps 51 (RSV) / Ps 50 (Douay Rheims)
[2] Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
In Psalm 26, the psalmist states his innocence and yet begs not to swept away, he maintains his innocence and yet asks for mercy. In Psalm 51 (which was written for an entirely separate situation!), the psalmist laments his sin and begs God for mercy.
In Psalm 26, the PSALMIST washes his own hands; in Psalm 51, the psalmist asks GOD to wash him.
Psalm 26 is about recognizing the call to holiness and the importance and gravity of the priestly office. Psalm 51 is about admitting failure in that call and office.
I'm curious if Psalm 51 was ever used at this place in the Roman Rite. (Probably not.) I wish I still had my copy of "Notes on the Catholic Liturgies" that I borrowed from my bishop emeritus. According to "The Mass of the Western Rites" by Dom Cabrol, the Lavabo was an addition in the 11th century.
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The prayer to the Trinity, with its request for intercessions and mention of the Paschal Mystery (although the second coming is absent, as it is from the Canon as well), was a testimony to Communion of Saints as well as one of two prayers addressed to God as Trinity. (Both prayers were removed.)
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General remark on the INNOVATIONS:
"That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress Careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places. Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing." (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 23)
I'm curious how the innovations of the new Offertory prayers fits in. The new prayers over the bread and wine (modeled after the Berakah prayers of Israel) are not from the Roman tradition and did not come organically from the existing prayers. Psalm 51 is not an "organic" development from Psalm 26; sure, they're both psalms, but very different kinds of psalms with different conceptual focuses. (Perhaps it was a strictly utilitarian decision: washing the hands is too short a process for 7 verses of a psalm, so let's just do one verse of a different psalm.)
General remark on the OMISSIONS:
"The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved. For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary." (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 50)
I am curious if the abbreviations and omissions to the Offertory prayers were considered "necessary" because of SC 50, especially those prayers which are "private" to the priest (that is, said quietly by him).
I suppose this is unreasonable of me, but I'd like to see the "minutes" of the Consilium's liturgy-factory meetings, explaining WHY prayers were removed, altered, or replaced.
[Updated on: Wed, 03 June 2009 18:18]
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Thu, 04 June 2009 05:53 |
leoxiii
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| japhy wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 18:13 |
I suppose this is unreasonable of me, but I'd like to see the "minutes" of the Consilium's liturgy-factory meetings, explaining WHY prayers were removed, altered, or replaced.
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Jeff, have you read Bugnini's apologia on the liturgical reform yet -- The Reform of the Liturgy: (1948-1975)? His account of the Consilium's work, while not a compendium of the actual minutes, is pretty close to that, and very thorough.
Of related interest might be Abp Piero Marini's work, A Challenging Reform: Realizing the Vision of the Liturgical Renewal (Liturgical Press, 2007). You may recall that Marini was Abp. Bugnini's personal secretary from 1975 until Bugnini's retirement. I haven't read this particular book yet, mostly because I'm not interested in the hagiography surrounding the late archbishop; but from the excerpts available at the LitPress site, you may find it useful from an historical point of view.
- Joe
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Thu, 04 June 2009 06:46 |
japhy
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Location: Princeton, NJ |
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| M Anon wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 00:53 |
Thank you! that must have been an enormous amount of work.
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It did take a while, yes. But there was nothing good on TV, and I'm a liturgy nut. 
| M Anon wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 00:53 |
are you essentially a Reform of the Reform type, or an Extraordinary Form type?
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I'm a bit of both, I suppose.
I've been to half a dozen Masses in the E.F. over the past two years. I've read a fair amount about the (Roman) liturgy and its history, although there's plenty more for me to learn, and I've not taken any classes on it which I will inevitably do if I wish to get a degree.
But I'm 27, and I grew up with the Ordinary Form. I've been to better-than-average Masses, but never one with ad orientem, and only rarely with Latin. I yearn for a more reverent daily and weekly liturgy, one more attuned to the traditional Roman liturgy.
I think there are some good reforms that were made in the Ordinary Form, but I think there's a lot in the Ordinary Form that should not be there. The O.F. is not an organic development of the E.F., but a new liturgy based on a general model, albeit with certain elements in common. Fr. Z has shown that the Collects, Super Oblatas, and Post-Communions have been cut-n-pasted from various sources. Particular Latin language has changed -- the Mass for All Souls, for instance, never once mentions the word "soul" (anima) in the presidential prayers. A lot was changed that, it seems to me, was not in need of change and was not MEANT to be changed by the Council.
I recognize in the E.F. occasions for reform. I don't think it was or is perfect. I would love to see the E.F. reformed along the lines of the Vatican II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy.
Update:
To answer your question plainly, if there were four camps -- EF, Reform of Reform, OF, Progressive OF -- I would be in the Reform of the Reform camp.
[Updated on: Thu, 04 June 2009 07:13]
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Thu, 04 June 2009 07:07 |
japhy
Messages: 480
Registered: October 2008
Location: Princeton, NJ |
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I'm working chronologically. I'm reading Dom Alcuin Reid's "The Organic Development of the Liturgy" which goes up to 1962, stopping just before the Second Vatican Council.
Then, I might read Bugnini's work and Marini's work, although from what I've heard about them from Fr. Z, they're going to confirm suspicions. There was a poignant excerpt from Marini's recent work which affirmed that the Consilium saw their task as "one of the greatest liturgical reforms in the history of the Western Church ... greater [than Trent] because it also dealt with doctrine." (p. 46)
There's a work by Laszlo Dobsazy entitled "The Bugnini-Liturgy and the Reform of the Reform" (available as a PDF from MusicaSacra)... pulling no punches with that title. I hope to read it... it's only 217 pages, which is far less daunting than Bugnini's 1000-page tome. I'm not a scholar, so I'm looking for accessibility.
I'm also working through the 500-document compilation "Documents on the Liturgy". It's frustrating to read at times, because some of it appears as lip service in hindsight.
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Thu, 04 June 2009 10:30 |
Andrew
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As someone who was raised with and regularly attends the "OF", I'm always struck by how much theologically richer the old Offertory Prayers are. The new prayers over the bread and wine are actually adapted from the Seder blessings of Judaism; that might be a nice inter-faith gesture, but they are utterly without precedent in the Roman Rite (or any other Christian liturgy that I am aware of). The new prayers just feel a bit simple by comparison.
-- Andrew
"Active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence... Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when... following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy."
-- Pope John Paul II
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| Re: Offertory Prayers New and Old |
Thu, 04 June 2009 11:40 |
japhy
Messages: 480
Registered: October 2008
Location: Princeton, NJ |
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| Andrew wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 13:30 |
The new prayers over the bread and wine are actually adapted from the Seder blessings of Judaism...
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I'm curious when these Seder blessings date from. There has been development of the Seder ritual since the time of Christ, so it's not guaranteed we're using prayers like the ones Christ used.
| Andrew wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 13:30 |
a nice inter-faith gesture, but they are utterly without precedent in the Roman Rite (or any other Christian liturgy that I am aware of).
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The Catholic liturgies already have plenty of Judaic background to them. Some development from that background seems appropriate; reversion to that background seems unwise.
| Andrew wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 13:30 |
The new prayers just feel a bit simple by comparison.
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Another thing the E.F. prayers have going for them is sense of purpose.
The O.F. prayers say "we have this bread/wine to offer You ... it will become for us the bread of life/our spiritual drink." This "offering" is not made clear. Offering... for what? We don't simply offer God bread and wine so that He can make it in the Body and Blood for US, we offer them so that we can, in turn, offer the Eucharist back to the Father! And we offer the Eucharist to the Father for the reasons made clear in the E.F. prayers: "to atone for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting", "for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world."
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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| More on the Lavabo (E.F.) |
Thu, 04 June 2009 14:56 |
japhy
Messages: 480
Registered: October 2008
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C. How do you understand those passages "I have washed my hands among the innocent", "As for me I have walked in my innocence", etc. How can a sinner use such language of himself?
P. Certainly the priest does not hereby deny that he is a sinner. For he adds, "redeem me and have mercy on me." But there is a true, though assuredly not a boastful sense, in which every priest can say "I have walked in my innocence." His state is a state of innocence; secured by its obligations against many of the worst forms of evil. From the time of his entering on that state, which is usually long before he becomes a priest, he may say "My foot hath stood in the direct way." And because he speaks, not as an individual, but in the name of his order, he may recount its privilege of sanctity without any breach of personal humility.
C. Thank you, sir. I now see that there is a peculiar beauty in the priest thus reminding himself, in words not his own, but of the Holy Spirit, of the innocence which belongs to his state.
P. You have precisely hit the point; and you will see on reflection that so far from such language endangering personal humility, the light which it throws upon the character of the priestly state is, of all things, the most apt to fill the individual priest with a humbling sense of his own unworthiness, and amazement at the goodness of God in calling such a one into His confidence, and suffering him to approach Him in these adorable mysteries.
(Source: "The Glories of the Catholic Church: The Catholic Christian Instructed in Defence of His Faith" (p. 235) By Richard Challoner, Henry Athanasius Brann, John Gilmary Shea, John Ireland, etc.)
My Blogs: Praying The Mass and The Cross Reference
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