Home » Religion and Ministry Discussions » Pastoral Ministry/Social Justice » Papal visit
| Papal visit |
Wed, 26 March 2008 10:56  |
Anne
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This full size ad will appear in newspapers such as USA Today, The NY Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post and others during Pope Benedict's visit. Good for VOTF!
http://votf.org/pope/ad.html
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| Re: Papal visit |
Thu, 27 March 2008 05:09  |
 Augsburg Boy
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| Anne wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 10:56 |
This full size ad will appear in newspapers such as USA Today, The NY Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post and others during Pope Benedict's visit. Good for VOTF!
http://votf.org/pope/ad.html
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thanks Anne, interesting reading, now duck and run for cover. I guess being from Boston like yourself, more or less, it still astounds me that Cardinal Law"less" resides in Rome sipping wine considering what he did and allowed to be done to so many victims.
Also the issue of financial transparency and accountability is important. Those settlement figures ( and only so far ) worldwide, imagine if the Church had sent and used this money for true ministry! Ahh, well, DUCK, I betcha some shrapnel is a'coming.  DONCHA KNOW!
[Updated on: Thu, 27 March 2008 05:10]
Randy
"The Lord so loved the world that He did not send a committee."
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| Re: Papal visit |
Thu, 27 March 2008 06:48 |
Anne
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I ducked at first but no one but you has posted a comment. I know what some are thinking though....How can VOTF be so inconsiderate and demanding during a visit from Our Holy Father the Pope?!!! I personally believe it's a good thing to get his attention on these important matters that are ignored by Rome.
How come our little emotion icons aren't working?
[Updated on: Thu, 27 March 2008 06:49]
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sun, 30 March 2008 04:44 |
Anne
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Evidently you care or you would ignore as well. Give an example of something in that ad that you would consider muddled thinking. It all makes sense to me.
BTW, Our Holy father had an opportunity to visit Boston and help with the healing. He chose not to come. That speaks volumes to us.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Fri, 11 April 2008 15:08 |
Anne
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[quote title=M Anon wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 07:19]
I didn't say that _I_ didn't care, I said MOST people probably didn't care. VOTF just isn't all that important to most people.
Thousands of people in the USA and abroad would disagree.
I care about what VOTF does.
...and they're doing good things.
I am a member of VOTF, (though pretty much in the same way you seem to be a member of the Catholic Church.)
Not sure what that means. You can assume what you want but you don't know me. I'm Catholic, always have been, always will be.
[b]Yes, I am sure there are people from EVERY city not on his itinerary, all the places he "chose not to come" who feel slighted the same way you do.
Nope, not the same way.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Fri, 11 April 2008 20:05 |
M Anon
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[quote title=Anne wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 15:08]| M Anon wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 07:19 |
I didn't say that _I_ didn't care, I said MOST people probably didn't care. VOTF just isn't all that important to most people.
Thousands of people in the USA and abroad would disagree.Yes, thousands, no doubt... yet all the same, MOST people probably didn't care. VOTF just isn't all that important to most people.
I care about what VOTF does.
...and they're doing good things. Some of what they do is good and well-meaning...
I am a member of VOTF, (though pretty much in the same way you seem to be a member of the Catholic Church.)
Not sure what that means. You can assume what you want but you don't know me. I'm Catholic, always have been, always will be. I think you know or could surmise, if you chose to...
[b]Yes, I am sure there are people from EVERY city not on his itinerary, all the places he "chose not to come" who feel slighted the same way you do.
Nope, not the same way.
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Well, yes, of course, everyone thinks his- or her- self, and his or her suffering unique. Look and see if anyones suffering is like unto my suffering...
[Updated on: Fri, 11 April 2008 20:09]
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 04:43 |
Augsburg Boy
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| Quote: |
title=Anne wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 15:08
[b]Yes, I am sure there are people from EVERY city not on his itinerary, all the places he "chose not to come" who feel slighted the same way you do.
Nope, not the same way.
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I guess one would have to live in Boston ( as Anne, myself, Ryan, Karl does ) to realize the effect the Sex Scandal has had on this city, and NOT just the Roman Church. To give an idea, the ONLY time I can remember a "Special" afternoon edition of the Boston Globe was when Cardinal Law-less announced his resignation. I am not minimizing all the other places this scandal has affected, but it could have been a very symbolic healing moment.
Maybe the Red Sox had a Home Game that day? 
Randy
"The Lord so loved the world that He did not send a committee."
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 04:48 |
Anne
Messages: 3816
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| M Anon wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 20:05 |
Well, yes, of course, everyone thinks his- or her- self, and his or her suffering unique. Look and see if anyones suffering is like unto my suffering...
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huh? I don't think that. You're missing the point M Anon.
Waste of time discussing this with you.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 06:16 |
Karl
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The situation in Boston - which shared much in common with elsewhere (my home diocese of Rockville Centre under a relatively progressive bishop during the time of the abuse coverups was a *nightmare* of sexual abuse coverups, btw) - had a number of bonus features.
First, because of Cardinal Law's paramount influence for English-language episcopal appointments in the Congregation of Bishops once Cardinal O'Connor died, Boston was the source of a number episcopal appointments elsewhere that helped to spread the miserably chancery culture further (it has long been my view that it is to Cardinal O'Connell's long reign in Boston that we can trace much of the awful chancery cultures in the US over the past century, but I digress). 
Second, the discrepancy between how much weight cardinal archbishops of Boston were long accustomed to throwing around on issues they were passionate about compared to how they coddled abusers was perhaps without depraved peer in any other major metropolitan area of the country because Boston had the *most* "Catholic" political culture of all of them. 
Third, there is how Cardinal Law was protected by the late Pope JOhn PAul II (I have a sense that the current Pope would *not* have done what JP2 did in that regard, but I could well be wrong). That intervention, so far as many here are concerned, heightened Rome's direct ownership of the recovery of the local church in Boston. 
* * *
Were someone asking me where B16 should have made a very limited visit to the US this month, I would have suggested three stops:
(1) Baltimore (NOT Washington - to deprive the Washington political establishment from co-opting the visit), as the mother local church of the USA (yes, I know that certain dioceses in former Spanish colonies are also "mother churches" of sorts),
(2) NYC (for the UN), and
(3) Boston (for the reason noted above).
It should be noted that it's not only folks with an axe to grind who advised B16 to visit Boston. Cardinal Sean made a strong pitch, to, and not for the usual prideful reasons.
(Then again, I would like to see the mega open-air papal Masses fade away, to be replaced by, let's say, vespers).
* * *
As for mega-petitions: I think they are worse than useless, so I don't participate in them. I don't care what the topic is. They are not about actually midwifing change but about *demonstrating* that "I care about [x]". So they are solipsistic, and detract from hard work.
As for VOTF: as someone who in January 2002 was encouraging people in my then-community to set up committees of correspondence (to use a revolutionary US term) with other communities, I had high hopes for VOTF. Unfortunately, much (not necessarily all) of it became way too self-impressed and self-absorbed. I think it's slowly strangling itself to a whimpered death.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 12:41 |
Anne
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Dearly Beloved in Christ,
Throughout the history of salvation, God has raised up individuals to lead His people. Christ assigned a special role of leadership to St. Peter. After Christ's name, it is Peter's name that appears with the greatest frequency in the New Testament. The testimony of Early Christian writers and the witness of the martyrs demonstrate that the Pope's role has always been a crucial part of God's plan for the Church. Jesus said the words to Peter: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." It was Jesus who gave Simon the new name, Peter, meaning the Rock. Jesus also bestows on Peter the power to forgive sin and to loose and bind on heaven and on earth.
To me one of the most moving experiences of my life has been to visit the tomb of St. Peter under the Basilica of St. Peter on the Vatican Hill. St. Jerome says that Peter was Bishop of Rome for twenty-five years until his martyrdom by Nero. Peter was nailed to the cross upside down because he insisted that he was not worthy to die as Christ did.
The New Testament does not hide Peter's human weakness, but the Acts of the Apostles describes Peter as he boldly proclaims Christ's resurrection, announces the Gospel message and leads the young Church in the face of so many challenges. Guided by the Spirit, Peter chooses a replacement for Judas and carries on the mission that Christ entrusted to him. That mission has continued in the Apostolic Succession handed on from generation to generation by the laying on of hands and the power of the Holy Spirit. Christ has not left us orphans. The Holy Spirit still guides the Church, and makes the ministry of Peter present in every generation. The Pope's ministry is a gift from Christ that promotes the unity and the Catholicity of our Church with over one billion members in every part of the world.
In the New Testament, St. Luke describes how the early Christians laid their sick by the side of the road so that Peter's shadow might touch them. Catholics throng to where the Pope is for the same reason, to be near the Vicar of Christ. It is the way we express our love for the Lord Jesus, who has given to His Church this ministry of Peter to guide us and to confirm us in the Faith.
I write this letter to ask you to pray for the spiritual success of the Holy Father's visit. At the same time, I urge all my fellow Catholics to listen attentively to the message that the Pope will address to us. The Holy Father is not a celebrity or a rock star. He is a Shepherd and represents Christ, the Good Shepherd, who commanded Peter: "Feed my Sheep." Pope Benedict is coming to feed us in our hunger for God and for truth.
Let us receive our Holy Father with loyalty and affection. May his presence among us help us to grow in our love for Christ and for one another. May his words renew us in our commitment to be faithful disciples in Christ's Church.
Assuring you of my prayers and pastoral love, I remain
Devotedly yours in Christ,
+ Cardinal Sean, OFM Cap
Archbishop of Boston
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 15:57 |
Karl
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I don't think Cardinals Cushing or Madeiros had chancery cultures that were especially different in this regard, though both men experienced nasty clerical politics themselves in different ways:
-reportedly, Cushing had his cardinal's hat delayed by Spellman for several years, due to the latter's desire to inflict some revenge on Boston for the late Cardinal O'Connell from whom Spellman learned much
-reportedly, Medeiros was isolated as an outsider by many in the Irish-Catholic clerical power network, which deepened after the busing crisis presented a challenge to his leadership
I wouldn't characterize either man as noteworthily progressive except on select issues.
Medeiros was brought in to fix Cushing's spendthrift habits. Law was brought in to bring to heal ethnic tensions within the local Catholic church. Both succeeded at their original mission. Both created crises in turn. Sean has been brought in to heal the wake of the abuse crisis. We'll see. One thing is sure: we are likely to always be fighting the last war, as it were....
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sat, 12 April 2008 16:32 |
Augsburg Boy
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| Quote: |
title=Karl wrote on Sat, 12 April 2008 15:57]I don't think Cardinals Cushing or Madeiros had chancery cultures that were especially different in this regard, though both men experienced nasty clerical politics themselves in different ways:
-reportedly, Cushing had his cardinal's hat delayed by Spellman for several years, due to the latter's desire to inflict some revenge on Boston for the late Cardinal O'Connell from whom Spellman learned much
-reportedly, Medeiros was isolated as an outsider by many in the Irish-Catholic clerical power network, which deepened after the busing crisis presented a challenge to his leadership
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Thanks, I'd heard both, especially as Medeiros being an "outsider", and yes Cardinal Cushing certainly didn't let a silly thing like a checkbook balance interfere with his building program! But a more colorful Cardinal I can't imagine.
I can remember his "official" full portrait, in his full robes, but I always envisioned drink in hand and the cigarette hanging out of the mouth!
Randy
"The Lord so loved the world that He did not send a committee."
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sun, 13 April 2008 07:01 |
Anne
Messages: 3816
Registered: April 2004 |
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| Augsburg Boy wrote on Sat, 12 April 2008 16:32 |
| Quote: |
title=Karl wrote on Sat, 12 April 2008 15:57]I don't think Cardinals Cushing or Madeiros had chancery cultures that were especially different in this regard, though both men experienced nasty clerical politics themselves in different ways:
-reportedly, Cushing had his cardinal's hat delayed by Spellman for several years, due to the latter's desire to inflict some revenge on Boston for the late Cardinal O'Connell from whom Spellman learned much
-reportedly, Medeiros was isolated as an outsider by many in the Irish-Catholic clerical power network, which deepened after the busing crisis presented a challenge to his leadership
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Thanks, I'd heard both, especially as Medeiros being an "outsider", and yes Cardinal Cushing certainly didn't let a silly thing like a checkbook balance interfere with his building program! But a more colorful Cardinal I can't imagine.
I can remember his "official" full portrait, in his full robes, but I always envisioned drink in hand and the cigarette hanging out of the mouth!
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Cardinal Cushing will long be remembered for his stance against the preaching (on Boston Common) of Father Leonard Feeney that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Church DID teach this so it was a big deal since the Vatican backed Cardinal Cushing's decision to excommunicate Father Feeney. Cardinal Cushing, whose sisiter-in law was Jewish, was instrumental in reversing this doctrine.
Another memory of Cardinal Cushing was his friendship with the Kennedy's. Catholics were appauled that Jackie was marrying Aristotle Onassis, a divorced man. Cushing scolded everyone and just about told them to mind their own business. She could marry anyone she wanted.
To the average Catholic, the nightly praying of the rosary on the radio was pretty much a normal routine in our homes. His voice is one I will never forget!
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sun, 13 April 2008 10:00 |
Anne
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| Anne wrote on Sun, 13 April 2008 07:01 |
whose sister-in law was Jewish
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Reading this over I'm thinking...It may have been his brother-in-law
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| Re: Papal visit |
Sun, 13 April 2008 12:18 |
Karl
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A lot of people don't realize that the Feeney affair involved activities in the neighborhood of my current parish in Harvard Square, and that the precise issues involved in the disciplinary process were mind-numbingly nuanced (which has allowed everyone to adhere to their own views of what did and did not happened, it seems).
Anyway, I suspected people might take some of Cushing's actions as some sort of indication that he was a progressive when I don't think that would be accurate in current terms. In his day, the cardinal archbishop of Boston ruled with an iron hand as much as before or after.
Reminds me of situations where I've known co-parishioners who've protested the lack of process in a pastor's decisionmaking, only to turn mute when a successor pastor uses the same process to results they agree with. Doing Vatican III in a Vatican I way is still more about Vatican I than Vatican II or III, as it were.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 07:17 |
Anne
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These protests won't bring about any change soon but this is a good time, when the world is watching, to bring attention to the issues.
Papal visit provokes array of protests
By DAVID CRARY, AP National WriterSun Apr 13, 12:46 PM ET
Pope Benedict XVI may not see them or hear them, but aggrieved Roman Catholic activists hope his U.S. visit this week will help them draw attention to issues ranging from the ordination of women and gay rights to sex abuse by priests and the Vatican ban on contraception.
The groups have planned vigils, demonstrations and news conferences to press their causes as the pope visits Washington and New York. On Monday evening, the eve of his arrival, supporters of women's ordination will host what they are calling "an inclusive Mass" at a Methodist church in Washington, presided over by Catholic women — including two who were recently excommunicated.
"We cannot welcome this pope until he begins to do away with the church's continuing violence of sexism," said Sister Donna Quinn, coordinator of the National Coalition of American Nuns.
Participants in the service will include Rose Marie Hudson and Elsie McGrath, who were excommunicated last month by Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis because they were ordained as part of a women-priest movement condemned by the Vatican.
"In the face of one closed door after another, Catholic women have been innovative, courageous and faithful to the church," said Aisha Taylor, executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference. "They continue to make a way where is none."
Gay Catholic activists, who plan to demonstrate Tuesday along the papal motorcade route in Washington, have compiled a list of statements by Benedict during his career which they consider hostile to gays and lesbians. These include forceful denunciations of gay marriage and of adoption rights for same-sex couples.
"He has issued some of the most hurtful and extreme rhetoric against our community of any religious leader in history, and we want to call him into account for the damage that he's done," said Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA.
Duddy-Burke said she hopes the protests will be coupled with celebration of the gains made by gay Catholics in America in recent years. She cited the growing number of parishes welcoming openly gay members and the dozens of Catholic colleges that now have gay-straight alliances.
Another gay Catholic group, New Ways Ministry, hosted a news conference at which speakers conveyed what they would tell the pope if they had the opportunity. The speakers included Gregory Maguire, author of the best-selling novel "Wicked," who along with husband Andrew Newman is raising three adopted children as Catholics in Massachusetts, the only state to allow same-sex marriages.
"We invite you to spend a day, a meal, a weekend with us," Maguire said in his message to the pope. "We don't want to serve as a poster-family for gay Catholics. ... We will just be ourselves, in all our confusion, aspiration, need and joy."
Another divisive issue being raised this week is the Vatican's ban on contraception. Gay rights groups and others say the ban undermines programs promoting condom use to curb the spread of HIV/AIDS.
In a conference call Monday organized by Catholics for Choice, four Catholic theologians will be examining the impact of the 1968 encyclical "Humanae Vitae," which defined the Vatican's opposition to artificial birth control.
"Catholics wonder why there's this huge disparity between what the hierarchy says we should do in regard to contraception and what Catholics on the ground actually do," said Catholics for Choice president Jon O'Brien.
He termed the ban "a great tragedy ... a policy that lacks compassion and understanding."
Asked about the prospects that Benedict might reconsider the ban, O'Brien replied, "I do believe in miracles."
For many American Catholics, the most distressing church-related issue of recent years has been clerical sex abuse. Thousands of molestation allegations have been filed against Catholic clergy, and dioceses have paid out more than $2 billion in claims since 1950.
David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abuse by Priests, said his advocacy group would not be mollified even if the pope meets privately with abuse victims.
"Extraordinarily few Catholics and victims will be moved in any way by gestures, words, tokens," Clohessy said. "It's as plain as day that three years into his papacy, Benedict has done literally nothing to protect the vulnerable or heal the wounded."
Clohessy said his group will make use of the papal visit to press for tough disciplinary action against bishops who covered up abuses by their priests and to urge pre-emptive steps by the Vatican against abuse by priests in other nations.
Clohessy expressed disappointment that the pope was not visiting Boston, where the scandal burst into the national spotlight in 2002.
"Showing a willingness to visit the epicenter of the crisis — that would have been one gesture that might have been effective," Clohessy said.
Voice of the Faithful, a Boston-based reform group which emerged from the scandal, placed a full-page ad last week in The New York Times, costing more than $50,000, to air its call for a transformation of the church.
The ad urged Benedict to meet with abuse victims, oust bishops who covered up abuse and promote a greater role for lay Catholics in running their parishes.
The extent to which the pope addresses the varied grievances during his trip remains unknown. But the Vatican's envoy to the United States, Archbishop Pietro Sambi, said any dissent that might arise was regrettable.
"Even in the Catholic church, nobody has the right to instrumentalize the visit of the pope to serve their personal interests," Sambi told the National Catholic Reporter. "The problem is that there are too many people here who would like to be the pope ... and who attribute to themselves a strong sense of their own infallibility."
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 07:59 |
PS4Ever
Messages: 1608
Registered: September 2007 |
Senior Member |
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| Anne wrote on Mon, 14 April 2008 07:17 |
These protests won't bring about any change soon but this is a good time, when the world is watching, to bring attention to the issues.
Papal visit provokes array of protests
By DAVID CRARY, AP National WriterSun Apr 13, 12:46 PM ET
Pope Benedict XVI may not see them or hear them, but aggrieved Roman Catholic activists hope his U.S. visit this week will help them draw attention to issues ranging from the ordination of women and gay rights to sex abuse by priests and the Vatican ban on contraception.
The groups have planned vigils, demonstrations and news conferences to press their causes as the pope visits Washington and New York. On Monday evening, the eve of his arrival, supporters of women's ordination will host what they are calling "an inclusive Mass" at a Methodist church in Washington, presided over by Catholic women — including two who were recently excommunicated.
"We cannot welcome this pope until he begins to do away with the church's continuing violence of sexism," said Sister Donna Quinn, coordinator of the National Coalition of American Nuns.
Participants in the service will include Rose Marie Hudson and Elsie McGrath, who were excommunicated last month by Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis because they were ordained as part of a women-priest movement condemned by the Vatican.
"In the face of one closed door after another, Catholic women have been innovative, courageous and faithful to the church," said Aisha Taylor, executive director of the Women's Ordination Conference. "They continue to make a way where is none."
Gay Catholic activists, who plan to demonstrate Tuesday along the papal motorcade route in Washington, have compiled a list of statements by Benedict during his career which they consider hostile to gays and lesbians. These include forceful denunciations of gay marriage and of adoption rights for same-sex couples.
"He has issued some of the most hurtful and extreme rhetoric against our community of any religious leader in history, and we want to call him into account for the damage that he's done," said Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA.
Duddy-Burke said she hopes the protests will be coupled with celebration of the gains made by gay Catholics in America in recent years. She cited the growing number of parishes welcoming openly gay members and the dozens of Catholic colleges that now have gay-straight alliances.
Another gay Catholic group, New Ways Ministry, hosted a news conference at which speakers conveyed what they would tell the pope if they had the opportunity. The speakers included Gregory Maguire, author of the best-selling novel "Wicked," who along with husband Andrew Newman is raising three adopted children as Catholics in Massachusetts, the only state to allow same-sex marriages.
"We invite you to spend a day, a meal, a weekend with us," Maguire said in his message to the pope. "We don't want to serve as a poster-family for gay Catholics. ... We will just be ourselves, in all our confusion, aspiration, need and joy."
Another divisive issue being raised this week is the Vatican's ban on contraception. Gay rights groups and others say the ban undermines programs promoting condom use to curb the spread of HIV/AIDS.
In a conference call Monday organized by Catholics for Choice, four Catholic theologians will be examining the impact of the 1968 encyclical "Humanae Vitae," which defined the Vatican's opposition to artificial birth control.
"Catholics wonder why there's this huge disparity between what the hierarchy says we should do in regard to contraception and what Catholics on the ground actually do," said Catholics for Choice president Jon O'Brien.
He termed the ban "a great tragedy ... a policy that lacks compassion and understanding."
Asked about the prospects that Benedict might reconsider the ban, O'Brien replied, "I do believe in miracles."
For many American Catholics, the most distressing church-related issue of recent years has been clerical sex abuse. Thousands of molestation allegations have been filed against Catholic clergy, and dioceses have paid out more than $2 billion in claims since 1950.
David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abuse by Priests, said his advocacy group would not be mollified even if the pope meets privately with abuse victims.
"Extraordinarily few Catholics and victims will be moved in any way by gestures, words, tokens," Clohessy said. "It's as plain as day that three years into his papacy, Benedict has done literally nothing to protect the vulnerable or heal the wounded."
Clohessy said his group will make use of the papal visit to press for tough disciplinary action against bishops who covered up abuses by their priests and to urge pre-emptive steps by the Vatican against abuse by priests in other nations.
Clohessy expressed disappointment that the pope was not visiting Boston, where the scandal burst into the national spotlight in 2002.
"Showing a willingness to visit the epicenter of the crisis — that would have been one gesture that might have been effective," Clohessy said.
Voice of the Faithful, a Boston-based reform group which emerged from the scandal, placed a full-page ad last week in The New York Times, costing more than $50,000, to air its call for a transformation of the church.
The ad urged Benedict to meet with abuse victims, oust bishops who covered up abuse and promote a greater role for lay Catholics in running their parishes.
The extent to which the pope addresses the varied grievances during his trip remains unknown. But the Vatican's envoy to the United States, Archbishop Pietro Sambi, said any dissent that might arise was regrettable.
"Even in the Catholic church, nobody has the right to instrumentalize the visit of the pope to serve their personal interests," Sambi told the National Catholic Reporter. "The problem is that there are too many people here who would like to be the pope ... and who attribute to themselves a strong sense of their own infallibility."
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So Anne, just out of curiosity... Do you believe in ordination of women? What about contraception, what're your thoughts? Homosexuals in the Church, any thoughts? Do the beliefs of these protestors seem similar or the same as yours?
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 08:51 |
Anne
Messages: 3816
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I doubt that the pope,while visiting, will touch on any of these issues,regardless of your feelings, mine or anyone's.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 09:31 |
Katherine
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| Karl wrote on Sat, 12 April 2008 09:16 |
The* * *
Were someone asking me where B16 should have made a very limited visit to the US this month, I would have suggested three stops:
(1) Baltimore (NOT Washington - to deprive the Washington political establishment from co-opting the visit), as the mother local church of the USA (yes, I know that certain dioceses in former Spanish colonies are also "mother churches" of sorts),
(2) NYC (for the UN), and
(3) Boston (for the reason noted above).
It should be noted that it's not only folks with an axe to grind who advised B16 to visit Boston. Cardinal Sean made a strong pitch, to, and not for the usual prideful reasons.
(Then again, I would like to see the mega open-air papal Masses fade away, to be replaced by, let's say, vespers).
* * *
As for mega-petitions: I think they are worse than useless, so I don't participate in them. I don't care what the topic is. They are not about actually midwifing change but about *demonstrating* that "I care about [x]". So they are solipsistic, and detract from hard work.
As for VOTF: as someone who in January 2002 was encouraging people in my then-community to set up committees of correspondence (to use a revolutionary US term) with other communities, I had high hopes for VOTF. Unfortunately, much (not necessarily all) of it became way too self-impressed and self-absorbed. I think it's slowly strangling itself to a whimpered death.
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Very thoughtful post, Karl. First let me get out the way your comment on a later post: "I wouldn't characterize either man as noteworthily progressive except on select issues."
You may consider it a 'select issue' but the Cardinal's views and actions on the labor question overwhelmed anything else about him in his day. His invocation at the national convention of the CIO was denounced as totally inappropriate for a man in his position by even the New York Times.
Back on the main topic, given the way the Church actually works, the running out of town of Cardinal Law was a very significant event. I have long believed there is merit to sending tyrants into exile and giving them a small pension to live on, rather than executing them. They are more likely to leave without as much of a fight that way.
Unfortunately, the conservatives were horrifed at the idea of the lay faithful rising up and chasing their Ordinary out of town. They went into high "spin" to insist this was a lateral move. It wasn't. The Vatican does not lightly allow the laity to remove a bishop but that is what occured. The conservatives did not stop this from happening, but the convinced large parts of the public this was not signficiant. The worst of both worlds.
Your advice to the pope is right on target (I say that even with my self interest of a DC visit. I'm looking forward to Thursday's Mass that I will be attending).
As for VOTF, I udnerstand but do not totally agree with your analysis. It may wither away because of its own success. That would be fine, we are about advancing virtue, not institutions. Unlike you, others never had high hopes for VOTF (I'm guessing PS4Ever being one of them). Like with Cardinal Law's dismissal, from day one they were horrified of the lay faithful actually organizing and speaking up. Too bad as had they been more thoughtful, they could have made a useful contribution to the effort.
[Updated on: Mon, 14 April 2008 14:01]
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 09:54 |
Karl
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Katherine, I had forgotten about the labor issue, and thank you for raising that.
Still, my overall point is that no one would have considered any of these prelates progressive in terms of the way they weilded their authority. They were used to unquestioned obedience first.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 12:04 |
Anne
Messages: 3816
Registered: April 2004 |
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| Karl wrote on Mon, 14 April 2008 09:54 |
Still, my overall point is that no one would have considered any of these prelates progressive in terms of the way they weilded their authority. They were used to unquestioned obedience first.
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Yes,Karl and I would agree with that. The sad thing is that until all was revealed, Cardinal Law showed some signs of being progressive. Especially in the 90's when there were many opportunities for the advancement and education of both clergy and laity. Lay ministers of all kinds were being formed and empowered. Those opportunities,(except for maybe one good program)along with morale fell to the wayside and Catholics in Boston became known as "God's frozen chosen". Unfortunately Cardinal O'Malley has yet to fix that. This would not be his priority, unfortunately.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 12:35 |
Karl
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Oh, there are others ahead of Catholics in the line of Boston's long line of frozen chosen. We just assimilated to it, that's all. (People forget that it's not only Congregationalism but also Unitarianism that was established in Massachusetts until the 1830s...)
Anyway, I knew about Cardinal Law's more not-exactly-progressive preferences regarding wielding authority back in the late 1980s, when I got to hear my fair share of stories in the parish I was then part of in north Cambridge. (When I came to this area 25 years ago, it was the first area I had ever lived in where people had pictures of their bishop hanging in their dwellings; I thought that mighty strange, and still do. I had never lived in a place where people cultivated deference to their bishops like Catholics in Boston used to do here. Then again, we didn't spend a lot of time fighting our bishops either - we simply had our bishops, like Proper Bostonian matrons of yore "had" their hats. There was no great drama to it.)
I will grant him some things: first, that he largely succeeded in his original mission, to help heal the ethnic tensions in our local church, and second, that I have no doubt he sincerely and often tirelessly assisted at the deathbeds and sickbeds of many people without the slightest hint of public notice. Oh, and he tried soon into his tenure ightily to change the reliance on bingo for parochial finances. He also ended soon into his tenure the common overreliance on multiple Saturday evening liturgies. But he also dithered on parish closings far longer than was healthy for the archdiocese, for fear of endangering fund raising. We've only gotten where we should have been a decade ago, sad to say, and more are certainly coming. (Which is not to say I espouse the processed used in the past, but only to say that we still have far more parish buildings than we can sustain.)
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 13:52 |
Anne
Messages: 3816
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[quote title=Karl wrote on Mon, 14 April 2008 12:35]
I have no doubt he sincerely and often tirelessly assisted at the deathbeds and sickbeds of many people without the slightest hint of public notice.
That is something I heard as well. He, himself was caretaker of people dying from AIDS at his own residence. He was instrumental in establishing an office for AIDS ministry for the Archdiocese and hired now retired Sr Zita Fleming. I'm actually not sure if this office still exists. He did some good things. It's very sad that he won't be remembered for these accomplishments.
Oh, and he tried soon into his tenure ightily to change the reliance on bingo for parochial finances.
Yes he did. Pastors actually had to put thought into other means of fundraising. Many PPC and Finance Council meetings (which Law made mandatory here)went on and on about raising money without the Bingo games.
He also ended soon into his tenure the common overreliance on multiple Saturday evening liturgies.
absolutely did that
But he also dithered on parish closings far longer than was healthy for the archdiocese, for fear of endangering fund raising. We've only gotten where we should have been a decade ago, sad to say, and more are certainly coming. (Which is not to say I espouse the processed used in the past, but only to say that we still have far more parish buildings than we can sustain.)
I hear that quite a few pastors would rather close parishes than implement the Pastoral Plan.
http://www.rcab.org/Life/PastoralPlanMay2007.pdf
The first phase is starting soon...I think, unless that's changed.
I agree that there are more buildings that could be sold off...land as well. BTW, My husband and I were given a tour of St Paul's the Sunday of John Dunn's thing. There's more to the place than I realized. That parish can't sell. They need what they have.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Mon, 14 April 2008 14:04 |
Karl
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St Paul's already sold its rectory and other land across the street, to finance the new buildings next to the church a half generation ago.
But I do think the era of every parish having a rectory will be coming to an end. Personally, I would recommend having diocesan priests (and seminarians) living together on a vicariate/deanery basis.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Tue, 15 April 2008 06:22 |
PhiMuAlpha2681
Messages: 714
Registered: November 2004
Location: Camp Hill, PA |
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| Katherine wrote on Mon, 14 April 2008 12:31 |
You may consider it a 'select issue' but the Cardinal's views and actions on the labor question overwhelmed anything else about him in his day. His invocation at the national convention of the CIO was denounced as totally inappropriate for a man in his position by even the New York Times.
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Katherine (or anyone else):
Care to elaborate for me a bit? This story/issue doesn't ring any bells for me.
Just curious,
~nb
An artist can be truly evaluated only after he is dead. At the very 11th hour, he might do something that will eclipse everything else.
-- Van Cliburn
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| Re: Papal visit |
Tue, 15 April 2008 11:08 |
Karl
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Registered: April 2004 |
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Though, from what I've read, what he did in 1949 was to address the state CIO convention in order to encourage those who were complying with Taft-Hartley anti-Communist efforts, since the CIO was divided between pro- and anti-communist factions at the time.
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| Re: Papal visit |
Wed, 16 April 2008 06:37 |
PhiMuAlpha2681
Messages: 714
Registered: November 2004
Location: Camp Hill, PA |
Senior Member |
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Thanks!
~nb
PS, while this probably belongs in Liturgical Music, I just read that Kathleen Battle is on deck to sing The Lord's Prayer for His Holiness today (I presume the Malotte; the article didn't specify).
An artist can be truly evaluated only after he is dead. At the very 11th hour, he might do something that will eclipse everything else.
-- Van Cliburn
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