Re: On the other hand....

Posted by Mark S. on March 04, 2004 at 09:45:18:

In Reply to: On the other hand.... posted by Randy( the heretic) on March 04, 2004 at 08:37:00:

Randy:

Thank you for bringing up this point for discussion. I have read with interest your contributions as well as Karl's. Carroll seems to be saying that celibacy and other practices that he views as anachronistic are creating an environment where sexual abuse flourishes. Greeley, on the other hand, seems to be saying (more to priests than to the laity, I think) that to improve the reputation of the priesthood priests need to be more diligent.

I agree with Carroll to the extent that some older abusers may have sought respectable refuge in the church as a means of quieting demons seething within them only to be placed in greater peril of sin (access to seminarians, altar boys, parochial students, children in the confessional, etc.). I disagree with Carroll insofar as he asserts that today celibacy may still be creating a haven for abusers to the same degree as it did before. I think the church is taking a more critical look at candidates for the priesthood, although I've seen more than one swishy seminarian of late (and as far as I am concerned he can be a little swishy as long as he's a good priest). What society permits today is a world apart from what society permitted in the 1950s. With the media bombarding us with all the news and programs, it's hard to conceive of a latent homosexual in his 20s today.

Though Carroll, without pausing to think, has seized on celibacy as a plank on which to construct his progressive platform, Greely really isn't much better. He's just changing the subject—"if you want to be free from criticism, work harder." The notion is also a bit simplistic; it's also attractive and finds resonance in the Yankee work ethic. No, celibacy is not the problem, but yes it is part of the problem. And Greeley touches on it obliquely, by his allusion to the letter to the Hebrews. I think that devout Catholics have been taught very thoroughly to mortify that part of themselves that leads them to sin. Celibacy is the mortification and (ineffective) solace of the abuser. I don't think you can expect any man to be celibate unless you also equip him with a good understanding of his own sexuality, and, in my view, no end of hours working on sermons or visiting the sick will eradicate deviant sexual inclinations. You just put the lid on tighter.

Mark

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• Re: On the other hand.... Randy( the heretic) 10:50:38 3/04/04 (0)

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: Randy: : Thank you for bringing up this point for discussion. I have read with interest your contributions as well as Karl's. Carroll seems to be saying that celibacy and other practices that he views as anachronistic are creating an environment where sexual abuse flourishes. Greeley, on the other hand, seems to be saying (more to priests than to the laity, I think) that to improve the reputation of the priesthood priests need to be more diligent. : I agree with Carroll to the extent that some older abusers may have sought respectable refuge in the church as a means of quieting demons seething within them only to be placed in greater peril of sin (access to seminarians, altar boys, parochial students, children in the confessional, etc.). I disagree with Carroll insofar as he asserts that today celibacy may still be creating a haven for abusers to the same degree as it did before. I think the church is taking a more critical look at candidates for the priesthood, although I've seen more than one swishy seminarian of late (and as far as I am concerned he can be a little swishy as long as he's a good priest). What society permits today is a world apart from what society permitted in the 1950s. With the media bombarding us with all the news and programs, it's hard to conceive of a latent homosexual in his 20s today. : Though Carroll, without pausing to think, has seized on celibacy as a plank on which to construct his progressive platform, Greely really isn't much better. He's just changing the subject—"if you want to be free from criticism, work harder." The notion is also a bit simplistic; it's also attractive and finds resonance in the Yankee work ethic. No, celibacy is not the problem, but yes it is part of the problem. And Greeley touches on it obliquely, by his allusion to the letter to the Hebrews. I think that devout Catholics have been taught very thoroughly to mortify that part of themselves that leads them to sin. Celibacy is the mortification and (ineffective) solace of the abuser. I don't think you can expect any man to be celibate unless you also equip him with a good understanding of his own sexuality, and, in my view, no end of hours working on sermons or visiting the sick will eradicate deviant sexual inclinations. You just put the lid on tighter. : Mark

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